IAM Members Approve Contract, Keep Boeing 777X in Washington

"For Sweden" (rallybeetle) 01/04/2014 at 15:27 • Filed to: Planelopnik, Unionlopnik, Laborlopnik, Untions, Labor, Boeing, 777, 777X

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!!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , members of the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers accepted a new contract from Boeing that will keep production of the future 777 variant in Washington State while cutting retirement benefits. The majority voted against the wishes of union leaders, but with the wishes of many Washington State lawmakers, who offered Boeing $8.7 billion in subsidies to stay in the state.

Image Source: !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!

heliochrome85 > For Sweden 01/04/2014 at 15:33

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If it aint Boeing, I ain't going.

For Sweden > heliochrome85 01/04/2014 at 15:37

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Having seen the statistics, it really doesn't matter.

XJDano > For Sweden 01/04/2014 at 15:47

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Well bummer. I know St.Louis County was forking out a lot of money, tax Incentives, land and stuff for them to build it here. Its been in the nightly news for a good while now.

trynthink > For Sweden 01/04/2014 at 17:28

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Yeah, but that doesn't rhyme.

erocker > For Sweden 01/04/2014 at 18:10

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Well... Somebody had to pay for Boeing's CEO's 15% increase in salary this year! That's right, an extra 3.2 million to bring their total salary to a cool $21 million.

Audistein > heliochrome85 01/04/2014 at 18:21

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Have you even been to Europe? It's not possible to travel within it using this mantra. Airbus, BAe/Avro, Bombardier, Fokker, and Embraer jets are all common among others that I'm sure I have not been on yet.

Also, while Boeing aircraft are nice, the Airbus A380 is a fantastic machine and there is no reason to pass up a flight on one. I really don't see how current Airbus planes are inferior, so I have no preference.

GFFFFF > For Sweden 01/04/2014 at 18:49

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These whiny union clowns know that if they beg hard enough, the US Government will eventually cover the red when Boeing has to declare bankruptcy someday. Thus, they will never concede a dime, only demand more; and misrepresent the numbers as if they are really making tough choices here. Fact is, when you promise the world to a lot more people than are paying in (because you didn't invest properly like a real pension should); Boeing will be hosed, and the pensioners will get hosed. That is unless the government, i.e. the tax payer cover it. Which should never happen. I don't have anyone securitizing my pension, I mean 403.b. Neither should this company, nor GM, nor its workers, or anyone else. You bought into a system that was designed to fail, its your fault not ours. They are lucky this time. Someday not too long down the road, they won't be that lucky.

UKPDXWRX > For Sweden 01/04/2014 at 18:55

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Yeah but 'murica!

InsertBullets > GFFFFF 01/04/2014 at 19:05

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I work at a aircraft manufacturing plant and we had a near strike back in september. You get the opinion that the company management and the union management are engaged in childish tactics of holding ones breath, creating a scene, slap fighting while the workers both union and non-union are left wondering what the fuck is going on.

CyanogenModFTW > XJDano 01/04/2014 at 19:07

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You cannot be sad about one state not losing its jobs so another can take them. It would be different if those jobs were not returning from over seas...

heliochrome85 > Audistein 01/04/2014 at 19:28

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Ive been more times than I can count. And Asia too. Its a tongue and cheek joke. Ultimately though I prefer Boeing to Airbus as Boeing tends to use standard seats, while Airbus use the ones where the seats slide forward as the back reclines, which for a guy like myself, at 6ft2, is less than ideal in cattle class.

I have not been in an A380, but Ive been in every other Airbus. As for Boeing, I prefer the 777 to the 747, although I have not been in a 787 or 747-8i. Both of those are on my hit list for me to cross off sooner rather than later.

Wufnu > For Sweden 01/04/2014 at 19:30

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This is surprising. I didn't expect the vote to be so close.

Vote: Do you want to lose your job and/or be forced to move across country? Yes/No

Planktron > For Sweden 01/04/2014 at 19:31

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One of my favorite planes to wrench on. Trip7's are incredible.

bernieecclestone > erocker 01/04/2014 at 19:34

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Yeah, the same CEO that is bringing in orders and commitments nearing $100 Billion for their planes.

GFFFFF > InsertBullets 01/04/2014 at 19:37

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It was the same when I was a teamster. I believe modern union and company relationships are not nearly as tenuous in real terms as they once were. But they are definitely made to look the part, mostly so the workers don't realize that the unions and companies are both making out in the deals on the backs of the workers. There almost needs to be a union to deal with the union now.

For Sweden > Wufnu 01/04/2014 at 19:50

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True, though one if the proposed sites was the C-17 line in Long Beach, California. Now they'll almost certainly lose their jobs in a few years.

boobaru > Wufnu 01/04/2014 at 19:53

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Well they wouldn't immediately lose their jobs, they do build other planes here.

That said, the 777X program is going to be HUGE, and not just for Boeing, but for the tens of thousands of employees of tier-1 and 2 suppliers that have located themselves near Boeing's Puget Sound assembly facilities (mostly Everett). Not having it here would have made it easier for Boeing to remove itself entirely from the Puget Sound area in the far future, to a more "hospitable" environment. This is why the politicians got involved and could not let this happen.

The vote was really between the old timers and the newbies. The old timers (and thus the IAW leadership) had more to lose with the retirement tweaks, while the new guys will have longer to pay into a 401k-style plan and potentially make more money. This is why the leadership tried to block the new guys out of the "secret" vote and the younger folks lost their shit. Greed is everywhere; union bigwigs are no different than corporate bigwigs.

Scrape > For Sweden 01/04/2014 at 19:59

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Dammit. I was hoping the stupid union members voted it down and Boeing moved the line, and then another line...and then another line. They already have a plant in South Carolina, and just keep heading south. What once was the manufacturing powerhouse of the north and the rustbelt states is still moving south. And why Boeing moved their HQ to Chicago a number of years back is beyond me. Miami, Atlanta or Dallas/Houston would have been a far better choice.

HowardRoark > For Sweden 01/04/2014 at 20:06

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This is the most shocking (not really) bit of info..." The majority voted against the wishes of union leaders..." The IAM would prefer production move out of WA than take a reduction of future benefits.

In a similar situation I recall the machinist union for Eastern Airlines during their last year of operations telling management "we demand full pay until the last day." Well they got it and their last day followed very swiftly...BTW the union leaders didn't lose their jobs, experience pay cuts, or see any reduction of pension, unlike their working members at Eastern.

OttoMaddox > For Sweden 01/04/2014 at 20:15

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All hail a victory for corporate welfare.

Boeing is set to receive $8.7 billion in tax incentives to keep the line in Washington.

Competing states were expected to provide infrastructure and training programs for workers at little or no cost. That's in addition to any tax breaks offered. To replicate what infrastructure is in Washington would have cost them about $10 billion.

I'll bet other states are breathing a sigh of relief that they lost the contest for the 787 line.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/govbeat/…

"Boeing wants the land for the facilities at no cost, or very low cost. They want states to pick up the tab for the new facilities, along with infrastructure improvements and new worker-training programs to churn out the high-skilled mechanics required to build the long-haul jets.

"And this is subtle: Boeing says it wants the “[e]ntire applicable tax structure including corporate income tax, franchise tax, property tax, sales/use tax, business license/gross receipts tax and excise taxes to be significantly reduced,” according to the document obtained by the Post-Dispatch.

Wufnu > boobaru 01/04/2014 at 20:19

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Good points.

TheMontrealScrewjob > Wufnu 01/04/2014 at 20:21

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Do you want to lose your job and/or be forced to move across country?

How can one lose their job AND be forced to move across the country?

OttoMaddox > XJDano 01/04/2014 at 20:22

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Yes. $1.7 billion, plus shouldering the cost of building the infrastructure and training workers. That will net the state a couple thousand jobs; until they're laid off.

http://www.stltoday.com/business/colum…

HowardRoark > erocker 01/04/2014 at 20:28

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A big portion of of CEO McNerney's compensation of $21M is in company stock.

Seeing that Boeing stock went from a 2013 low of $72.68 to a current value of $137.65 his leadership added more than $50 billion in capital to Boeing last year. Unfortunately, building aircraft is very capital-intensive requiring years of planning for products to be built a decade from now while competing against a very price aggressive Airbus.

jph > Scrape 01/04/2014 at 21:11

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+1
As an engineering student in the South, I say keep them coming.

darianjosef > Audistein 01/04/2014 at 21:14

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You did not pick up on that joke at all...

Daniel Meyer > Planktron 01/04/2014 at 21:18

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Please! Tell us more! (I'm absolutely not being sarcastic.) Consider making a post of your own on Oppo?

Braniff747SP > For Sweden 01/04/2014 at 21:23

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The only reason that I would have wanted this to fail would be to move production to LGB—something that would never happen.

Good for IAM to come down to the real world.

Braniff747SP > For Sweden 01/04/2014 at 21:24

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Wasn't going to happen, we all knew that. The state would never give them the tax breaks and whatnot.

I'd love it, though.

MFEJAL grey because who knows... > Audistein 01/04/2014 at 21:59

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Rent a car and drive , Jalop.

astrocramp > Audistein 01/04/2014 at 22:04

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Not so sure about the A380, I think it's just too many people. I'd give a shot, but expectations would be low, not because of the aircraft, but the concept in general.

Planktron > Daniel Meyer 01/04/2014 at 22:09

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Hell if there's enough interest or I'm bored enough I'll consider it. I've spent comparatively little time on 777's compared to my main squeeze, the Airbus A320 but I've wrenched on every current Boeing type and many Airbus types throughout my career.

Some things about the 777 are almost incomprehensible, such as the sheer size of the landing gear and engines. They've also got a dedicated maintenance computer in the cockpit that can display parameters of each system. It's like having one of those fancy Snap-on OBDII diagnostic computers in your dashboard.

BullittFan_Fords4Life > Scrape 01/04/2014 at 22:45

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Fuck the south.

Audistein > MFEJAL grey because who knows... 01/04/2014 at 22:57

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The fastest car in the world...

Scrape > OttoMaddox 01/04/2014 at 23:42

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The millions in long term tax revenue from the employees and PILOT, as well as the subsequent sales tax revenue and business tax revenue from businesses that support the added population would MORE than make up for whatever investment would have been made to attract an employer like Boeing. These are not a few burger flipper jobs, but THOUSANDS of high paying and high skill careers that are relatively stable, all in one swoop. Add in all the OTHER economic development from house sales, apartment rentals, new homes, car sales and the ancillary businesses associated with Boeing and it would have been a massive win-win.

This corporate welfare BS doesn't work in moron states like NY where they offer huge tax incentives for a small number of jobs (often with no guarantees) in certain well defined properties in depressed areas of the state (usually Upstate), and then the business leaves just before or just after the incentives expire, the company sells itself, they don't hire anywhere near the promised numbers, or they just go out of business. The community and state NEVER sees anywhere near the positive economic impact promised by the politicians writing the checks, just desperate to got ANY suckers, I mean, companies to come in an provide a few jobs. Kinda like Obama's stimulus package. Here's an idea: just lower ALL the taxes and become more business friendly to everyone!

stiggalicous > For Sweden 01/04/2014 at 23:51

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As a previous Boeing employee, I'm a bit surprised and kind of glad to see how this vote turned out. One one side there's the poor workers fighting to keep a decent wage and decent benefits, and on the other side there's the big corporate big-wigs who want to squeeze out every last drop of profit from everywhere they can. I joined a non-union worker and left as a non-union worker after getting fed-up with how slowly things went and how nearly everybody said "no, you can't do that" without giving any actual explanation as to why. I worked with plenty of union workers, and there was a very distinct divide between those who were ripe for retirement within 5-10 years and those who actually needed a job. I loved working with those who were happy they had a job and couldn't stand working with the slow, grumbly folks, as they would surf Youtube during the day and work "overtime" during the night. It's good and healthy to see that people finally realize there is a balance between companies and their workers, and that unions can't always get exactly what they demand. Earning $70k per year without a college degree plus benefits (as in free-premium health insurance) is a damn good job to have. Demanding more than that is downright greedy.

On another note, I greatly applaud the quality of Boeing aircraft. The 787 seriously reduces jet lag.

kayldera > heliochrome85 01/05/2014 at 00:08

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Actually, the airlines are the ones deciding which seats to use and what functions are built into them.

solk512 > For Sweden 01/05/2014 at 00:33

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So no one here gives a fuck that there was just a $10B stock buyback and 50% increase in the dividend, all while the company stock is near an all time high with orders coming out their ears?

All I keep hearing from folks is that simply because they don't have a college degree that they only deserve whatever scraps are given to them, and that they should be thankful for that. Fuck that shit, these folks work long hours day in and day out producing some of the most advanced civilian aircraft in the world.

I know it's fun to shit on blue collar workers these days, but come the fuck on.

rabbit21787 > Wufnu 01/05/2014 at 01:33

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Wouldn't be the first time I've seen a union vote to lose their jobs over losing some benefits.

putupyourdukes > heliochrome85 01/05/2014 at 01:39

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If it's Boeing, I ain't going.

putupyourdukes > heliochrome85 01/05/2014 at 01:41

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The airlines pick the seats, no the airplane manufactures.

If you are in an uncomfortable seat don't blame boeing or airbus.

victor > BullittFan_Fords4Life 01/05/2014 at 03:12

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To be honest, the south is like America's domestic China/Bangladesh/Sri Lanka. That's the cheapest place to build. The instant you can make cars / planes / etc. cheaper overseas without import duties and tariffs or political backlash; those guys will jump ship in a heartbeat to the next cheapest place.

victor > HowardRoark 01/05/2014 at 03:16

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That argument would hold water. Except Boeing is on fire for the past 5-10 years, and has secured orders for the next 5-10 years.

Mike D F > victor 01/05/2014 at 03:19

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It's actually pretty interesting when you see the downward spiral of the middle class versus tariffs. Surprise! Surprise! There's a correlation.

Import tariffs and duties for many years actually funded the whole of the American federal government.

Wufnu > TheMontrealScrewjob 01/05/2014 at 03:25

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New contract. Technically... fuck it, I got nothing.

rabidcontent > For Sweden 01/05/2014 at 03:46

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Glad the workers realized 401k's are better than NO-01k's! EH EH?

Seriously though, I can throw a rock and hit the Boeing plant. This is good news for everyone here, as all jobs are either at Boeing, or in some manner of service or support for those who work there. At least we have Microsoft, Amazon, Starbucks, etc if Boeing ever does decide to pull out one or more of their lines.

OttoMaddox > Scrape 01/05/2014 at 03:55

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What flavor is your Kool Aid? I'll bet its trickle down yellow.

interceptor > erocker 01/05/2014 at 05:04

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That's 12 times more than the Airbus CEO, wow.

hat213 > astrocramp 01/05/2014 at 05:59

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It is amazing, best economy I have ever seen. Wasn't in a personal cabin but maybe in a few years.

hat213 > Scrape 01/05/2014 at 06:04

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It is corporate welfare. No state should offer any incentives to any company ever. They are being taken from other business.

Cé hé sin > Audistein 01/05/2014 at 07:54

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I take it that you haven't experienced the doubtful pleasure that is Ryanair!
They're Boeing only, not least because they took advantage of a downturn in the plane market to squeeze huge discounts from the company.

boxrocket > XJDano 01/05/2014 at 09:44

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My sentiments precisely. Makes me miss McDonnell Douglas all the more.

Daniel Meyer > Planktron 01/05/2014 at 09:44

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The size of the jet is pretty unbelievable. I wish I had had more time to look around than the quick herding from the terminal to the stairs in Accra last spring. I am but an infrequent passenger and an enthusiast.

grauburgunder > solk512 01/05/2014 at 10:18

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Give me a break. All the union workforce was asked to do is live exactly the same as I do as an F-15 engineer here in St. Louis - namely going from a pretty unsustainable defined benefit system (pension) to a defined contribution (401k). Did I mention they will get a huge bonus in a few years that us non-union guys don't? Better healthcare and education benefits? These 'low wage poor guys' make the same or more as I do as a systems engineer and work far fewer hours - hell they still get overtime that I don't. I don't really care, my point is that our production line workers are far from mistreated so please stop painting them as such.

Josh Bailey > erocker 01/05/2014 at 10:28

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Here is what I don't like about the argument of CEO salaries being used to explain why worker wages are low.

Boeing has 170,000 employees. If the wages of those employees was cut and given directly to the CEO, everyone would lose $18 this year to pay for the increase. That is a drop in the bucket compared to the total revenue for the company.

solk512 > grauburgunder 01/05/2014 at 10:31

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So because you're undercompensated, the solution is to bring everyone else down?

WhereAreMyPants > solk512 01/05/2014 at 11:42

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I'm sorry, but anyone complaining about their employer switching from a pension to a sustainable program should sit down and shut up.

The last fifty years of American business has shown that it's simply not a viable compensation option. This isn't a fantastic deal for either side, but it's surprisingly reasonable for both.

Scrape > hat213 01/05/2014 at 12:04

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Clearly you have no clue how an economy works.

mierdv > solk512 01/05/2014 at 12:15

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No the point is to bring those that are overcompensated back into alignment with their skill level.

mierdv > For Sweden 01/05/2014 at 12:40

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Damn and I was hoping to have this move to Texas.

OttoMaddox > Scrape 01/05/2014 at 13:56

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Are you an economist? Of the Chicago school? It's their economic ideology over the past 30 years that's lead to the state we're in.

One of their most influential economics was Milton Friedman. The one thing he said that I agree with is, "One of the great mistakes is to judge policies and programs by their intentions rather than their results."

The results have been the rise of the corporatist state and economic instability for everyone else but the 1%. For them it's been very lucrative.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_s…

Scrape > heliochrome85 01/05/2014 at 14:03

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It is "If it ain't Boeing, IT ain't going."

HammerheadFistpunch > For Sweden 01/05/2014 at 14:06

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Utah is bummed. We had high hopes they would move assembly here, or more of it than we have already.

hat213 > Scrape 01/05/2014 at 14:08

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I'm just saying my country has one of the lowest headline corporate tax rates in the world but is mid-table in the OECD for actual corporate tax rates as we have less exemptions. A simple code is better than a low tax rate anytime.

Plus tax breaks and incentivses are exactly the same as explicit subsidies but idiots like they more because "yay tax cuts". The US has the worst tax code in the developed world because it is riddled with exemptions. The latest PWC report put it at 80 hours for average business to comply with tax code compared to 179 hours in the US.

I'm an economist, bitch.

Scrape > hat213 01/05/2014 at 14:20

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I agree with that. Simplify the code and get rid of exemptions for everybody. In the US, states are competing with other states to attract businesses within their borders, and they do that both with better business tax rates and by offering companies incentives to move there. High tax states like New York, Illinois, New Jersey, Michigan, and especially California have been losing population and businesses for a long while now while states less hostile to business with less regulation and less taxes have been booming. South Carolina (where Boeing opened a plant), Georgia, Louisiana have been doing pretty well even in recession times.

The issue is that both the US tax code , which needs to be thrown out and started over, is just one piece of the puzzle. State and local tax codes and rates, and business regulation laws also play a major role in where businesses locate or if they relocate.

erocker > Josh Bailey 01/05/2014 at 15:14

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Well, instead of taking $18 bucks from everyone to pay for this raise, they cut some jobs of folks instead. Perhaps the term "drop in the bucket" is the source of the issue.

hat213 > Scrape 01/05/2014 at 16:11

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Georgia and Louisiana are poor shit-holes which leech off the educated workers paid for by other states. They also get massive subsidies from other states like New York and New Jersey.

I'm just pointing out the facts buddy.

Scrape > hat213 01/05/2014 at 16:22

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They are poor states because they historically didn't have much industry except for farming. This is changing now, and the education offered there is no worse than urban areas of the US. In fact, the WORST level and quality of education actually exists in the cities of the Northeast and Midwest. how much education do you need to man an air wrench and bolt the wheels on a car? Not much. And there is LOTS of high tech moving into the South, mostly Texas and Georgia, but in other states as well. There is still a strong work ethic down there as well you won't find up north. That, and there are so many transplants down there, it is hardly the place it was even a decade ago. I'm a transplant to the mid-atlantic, like a vast number of people here. I fled the high taxes and lack of job opportunities of NY and haven't looked back.

slowinseattle > Audistein 01/05/2014 at 16:40

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Here is one way in which Airbus planes are inferior:

victor > Mike D F 01/05/2014 at 17:10

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Even better. Both GM an Boeing not only mfg in China, but they have both openly expressed desire to move mfg to China for US sale.

hat213 > Scrape 01/05/2014 at 18:12

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Yes, because work ethic is a geographic character trait.

Retard.

Couldn't have anything to do with long term social, political and most of all technical changes.

Scrape > hat213 01/05/2014 at 18:44

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Actually. It is. Shows how much you know.

hat213 > Scrape 01/06/2014 at 03:46

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Well personally I think character traits are racial.

p.s. I'm actually just making fun of how stupid you are.

solk512 > WhereAreMyPants 01/06/2014 at 19:16

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Pensions are perfectly sustainable when the proper contributions are made. Plenty of pensions, when run by the people the pension pays out to, are just fine.

Scrape > hat213 01/06/2014 at 20:00

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Who said anything about race? Oh, you did..thats right. You are the racist.

It is well known that the south likes to "take things slow" and not really rush things. While those in New England want stuff done yesterday. It has nothing to do with race, it is the southern culture. Everything is much more polite and relaxed. So many northerners have moved south that this isn't completely true anymore, but for a VERY long time, northern professionals were in great demand by southern companies to try to "move things along" and be more productive. Companies would actively recruit northerners into management roles to set project schedules. Same thing with college graduate recruitment...get the dudes from New England colleges because they'll work their tails off to get ahead. Locals? They'll just go with the flow. It is another reason why the South is doing so well...the culture has been changing as result of the migration of talent from the North to the South. There is a HUGE brain drain from states like New York. Its a fact. And I am VERY far from stupid, you ignoramus.

hat213 > Scrape 01/07/2014 at 04:09

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I was making fun of the idea of geographic work ethic, why not racial work ethic?